Junyor + Friends

Point of order..... the with strings..... I believe you are implying I listen currently?!!?!??!?!?!?

(wow a one line response from me?!?!?!?!?!? ok 3 lines with this editorial :P)

Never ask Mensrea to comment if you aren't expecting to receive a well thought out answer (read long). I appreciate the comments that everyone has contributed to this discussion and would agree that an acceptable answer would be to move our high lvl chars over to BRG without dismantling SQSQ.

However, I also agree with Codiac's thinking on not wanting to get involved in a lot of hoopla. Therefore, I will go along and see how it goes. If we are not all happier in a couple of weeks, we can make a retreat from BRG back to the SQSQ. I would send out one note of caution to not burn bridges, we like Janelle and don't want to reflect poorly on her. Well, hell, we think highly of ourselves and don't want to give anyone the impression that we aren't as good as we think we are.

So I assume to vote count (I am not putting up a poll) to moving our high lvl characters...Mensrea, Actus, Puris, Carus, Rel, Orlin, Thalamos, Danallora to BRG (if they will have us) is:

Mensrea: Yea
Oracle: Yea
Codiac: Yea (with strings)
Junyor: Yea (with strings)

The with strings, I will only consider moving over if one of Mensrea's chars is made a guild officer in BRG. I still want to have the ability to bitch to someone who will listen.

So to BRG - they get 8 lvl 60s from 5 players (we force Rea to move her hunter). In return (at a minimum) they elevate one of Men's chars to officer.

Junyor out.

Hmm. I suppose I ought to chime in.

Honestly, I love the idea of the website. However, I think Mens bring good questions to the table, and after considering them for a while, I believe the website may be much more work than it is worth.

As to joining the Black Rose Guard, I think Mens hit the nail on the head, as far as I'm concerned, when he said that we shouldn't lose our autonomy as a small group. I'm really not one for crowds, and to be frank, the 5 man stuff we've been doing has been truly great but that's as large as I believe I want to go. I really don't care for the raid group setup that Blizzard has. I realize that it was necessary to keep things manageable but I still don't like it.

So, short story long, I really am not all that interested in doing the large raids and really don't feel a great need for more folks than what we've got. But, if we can keep doing what we've been doing, I would not be adamantly opposed to moving our main chars to the BRG.

Well, I do like the idea you have suggested at least the ideology of it. I don't mean to just put it down or say it can not work at all. And nothing says I even know what I'm talking about. Feel free, anyone, to counterpoint my thoughts above.

I think those issues are ones to really be looked at prior to us (well Oracle) in developing a site, testing it, making it pretty encompassing to handle the complexities of handling a lot of guilds with lots of players in the guilds, much less when players change guilds often. So having a guild structure in it is tough too with that fact (just came to me that one did I need more beer).

By all means, if after contemplating the points above, and we still feel a website should be our first go, then we can look at doing that up and giving it a go. I don't mean to just say we can't do it. Just want to make sure we look at a lot of the issues we may or may not face so we aren't blindsided.

I would probably say the time spent to develop, host and administer and maintain the site will be more headache than productive in getting the raids going like we have desired.

I also posed other options if we want to try partyign more as a group in raid pugs. That way half the pug is us (assuming 10 mans) and we won't have such a hopeless feeling as joining most pugs when its just 1 of us tyring to find it.

I think before we start to migrate characters we need to talk about it in more live conversation as well. Plus I'd like to talk with Elwine prior to it, just to make sure she understands somewhat where we coming from as well. That while we will become guildmates and help the guild out, we also will be seekign our autonomy to do our own thing as the Squadron still. I don't want us to just be assimilated and lose what we have as well and want to make sure she understands that is where we are coming from. But I do think getting into the guild will open us up to a lot more options, lot more people to help and get to know and what not.

Hopefully I will be home tonight at a reasonable hour. We have had two servers have catastrophic failures yesterday. Today we got the new parts in we needed and are copying new drives and think we will be set except for our Exchange server. Hopefully that is completed tomorrow. But if we are close tonight, I may have another late night.

Hopefully see you tonight so we can discuss this, and all our options of what we want, what we expect from the game and for that matter from each other. I know I have put priority unto myself that what I do and learn on this game I have wanted to be doing with you guys, not just random people. Why I rarely do pugs myself or anything and why I have been so psyched when we have reached 60 with more of our characters. It means we can as a group do things together. And I do want to make sure everyone knows, that if I'm playing a lower character leveling, and you want to party and do something, just say something. I only lately work on other characters to pass the time, though I should be farming weed and stones but well thats boring ;) HAHAHA

So in this light, I just have to say that I have been quite excited that we have gotten to a point where we can 5 man things. Which I love that challenge and learning curve for strategy and cooperation. I just wish we were able to do that together more often. We had a good weekend not too long ago where we hit strat and scholo a couple times during the weekend. I really wish we can do that more often, or even during the week. I just know during the week it doesn't seem like we are able to start an instance until 830 which gives us little time to do a full run. But we are getting more efficient at our time in instances so things are looking more promising.

And that is why I created a topic, you two (esp mensrea) will write me a book telling me whats wrong.

Now as for the squadron. I then propose that we move the highest chars over to the black rose guard, I will leave plato in the Squadron just in case. I will agree with the instance running. This may be a big mistake but we have always beenable to come back from big mistakes before, with little to no affect and a lot of knowladge.

So to my Junyorish type friend lets take a vote. I am happy with whatever we come to as long as we come to it. We have done some amazing stuff in the past and lets keep on doing those amazing things.

First, let me say that I see a difference between end game guilds and Black Rose. Though Black rose has started to dabble in MC and stuff, they are not that type of structure. To me, end game guilds basically require participation and kick players out if they aren't in the MC runs etc. They basically strive just to run. Black rose is an extension of us to some degree. They are a conglomeratoin that mostly raids the level 60 instances. and help each other out. Just more people than what we offer.

As far as the site. I like the idea, and I like the thoughts of addressing issues and concerns we are facing currently. I could be way off base, but I do not see the dynamics of the game really fitting the demographics for a site like that, mostly cause it requires a lot more work for people to, well basically form PUGS that they already do, well maybe educated PUGS.

Let's say for sake of argument get people to know the site. The game faces many guilds forming everyday (watch the guild charter requests). The large number of PUGS out there would be reflected on the site having large numbers of guilds making requests and organizign their 3 or 4 people with few from others and a couple from another. So basically have just moved the LookingForGroup channel to Federations.com. And since there could be so many, it isn't for sure which players from each guild you would get going any time, so would have most everyone being ML's at different points in time. So there is a lot of data being put out that starts to lose meaning since everyone will start being assigned ranks.

Another consideration is the extra "work" put into hav ing to game now. I know it doesn't seem like much to just click a radio button 1 through 10 or however you want to do the ranking, however apathy is the ruler of humanity it seems. I would guess, most people after a long run in an instance won't be too energetic to come to a site to rank people in it, espeically if the vote is ok or good. Only time you would get feedback (as is the case in most feedback situations) is only for negative information which then skews the voting. Sure we all have a bad night once in a while or do something stupid which could be completley innocnet (i didn't mean to aoe the bar) :P but with one bad night of votes and not really many who vote in positive, the ranking then isn't very reflective... Not to mention then you get into more nuisance of people bickering whether the voting is fare or not. And bring on the flames.

Going back to the immediacy thing again. For the instances like Scholo or Strat or Ubrs, I don't htink you find many people who really plan it out or need to plan it out. Maybe there are many more people who don't like PUGS like us who don't just get and go, but I think those people get into alliances. Most of the time people log on and start to look for the groups, asking friends etc, maybe before even trying the lines in cities. Mostly cause planning isn't needed as much for those instances. You can be successful in PUGS in them.

And accountability issue again as well. How many times have we talked about doing something for a night. I know Dana can think of a few nights we commented going somewhere sometime and due to work or time or just different opinions on that night we change things going on.

Again, I really like the idea being put forth and the thoughts of trying to improve the situatoin. I just don't see the feasability of the site. I'm not saying it can't work, but I just posing devil advocate questions and thoughts to consider and be answered.

The issue I'm hearing is the desire to do instance raids but avoid getting farmers and ninja's which are the two biggest issues. Newbies who may not party well can be taught. Look at us as prime example. Think about how much better we get at workign as a group lately the more we party.

So to me there are a few more options for us to consider, since I'm not too concerned if XYZ guild can instance run or not, I'm concerned if we can or not. And our ability may include XYZ but isn't a requirement.

First we can start to, as a group, partying with more people and form our own PUGS that we control. The more we do this as a group and get to know people, we can keep notes on the players we like, figure out if they are in big or small guilds and basically form our own alliances with those guilds. The larger guilds probably don't need more so we would be having alliances with a handful of small guilds. A basic result of the website in a different way though.

Well the next option I was going to list was forming alliances with guilds but that was covered above.

Finally I need to mention again the option of absorbing into Black Rose (or another guild if so chosen). Black Rose is not an end game guild, though maybe one day they will be. But they recently lost members who were wanting to join the end game guilds. Heck, to some degree assimilation has started. Furta is in it, Venaria and Loquela are in it. I agree that I just don' tlike the idea of losing our identity as the Squirrel Squadron. I know we left other guilds because of politics and issues that we distain in the large guilds, however that was also when we were learning the game and the nuances of it. I think we have better control of the issues now. I have often lately toyed the idea even before this discussion of having us join them, goes back to summer when I first started doing a lot of partying with janelle and her guildies.

However, I also throw out that Black Rose may not be the answer either. I know a lot of the level 60's been in guild a while and have done a lot of runs and have most of their gear they can get from Strat/Scholo/Ubrs. Not all of them nor all eq, but they are basically near that, so they will be wanting to move on I'm sure. Maybe not, maybe they will work on alts and others who need it if we join. And as I have mentioned, I know they have started to do MC and ZG runs more frequently. Ultimately, if we don't like, we can reform Squirrel Squadron very easily. Heck, can even leave my pallie in it so the name isn't taken by anyone else too since he will be my 8th char i play i think, if we still on here by then.

Again I'm not sure if I like losing the Squadron either. There are many issues to consider, though I do think that we still can have our autonomy as a group for majority of our playing time if we so choose. Just includes an ease of getting into raids. Though again, not sure how willing a lot are as they used to be month or two ago. But there are enough low levels in there that I'm sure they will be.

For now at least, the last suggestion I make is just to start recruiting more Squirrels. This may mean initially taking a closer look at rankings and organizatoin of the guild. Having an actual promotion rules/tables and close reviewals of recruits. This also means we will spend a lot of time helping low levels to level up as well. It also means we may get a lot more of Squirrels or whatever numbnuts name was a while ago. But as with him, can be booted. We can make our guild a medium to large guild. Though personally, I think I'd rather absorb into another than run a larger one.

And I agree with Oracle that I do not care to institute DKP into the guild.

Oh, on another note, also consider that the expansion pack will come out sometime here in the future, which means these instances are nothing and we will be needing the next ones up. Not that that really means much, just something else to give thought to in how it may or may not play into all the suggestions listed.

Anyway, I'm tired and exhausted so I know I must have rambled maybe about 25 or 30 words here on this post, before it gets long I'll shush and think on this some more.

I have edited the original post to offset his points of concern. However that being said with the voting system and such it should be easier, over time, to pick and choose the better people whom seem to well in runs. Now this isn't a perfect system, far from it but it is 10 times better than sitting in IF waiting for a group whom you know verry little about, nor should it stop that. Alot of peolpe have time constraints and it would be nice to know that 'I am going with *some* goup to do this tonight'.

 
As for joining an end-game guild to do the larger runs. That is what most people give as an answer to the question. I for one don't like that idea, and I think that I am not the only one. We all know the meeting stones are a joke, that was blizzards answer to it, and this is a better way of finding good groups.

 
Remember its all chance but it doesn't hurt to hear other peoples input on those who you are about to party with.

Mens asked some really good questions and I think was scratching the surface on what the motivation for building this system is. As an extension to PUGs I think it could make sense, you never know what you are getting yourself into –personally I don’t like PUGs. I doubt that site would change that for me, but I imagine it could be quite useful to those who do

If it is simply a matter or wanting to get into more raids and the such, I think a player would be wise to join a guild that does such things. I have thought a time or two about merging the Squirrel Squadron with Black Rose or some other guild…if that is the decision we make there would be real advantages and real disadvantages.

I am sure Mens change do a better job of calculating the advantages / disadvantages to joining a larger guild. I would miss my squirrel, but I am willing to support whatever decision you guys make. However, I would caution that we have all quit larger guilds because of bickering and politics …as was already stated…leave the drunk dwarf alone.

I'm not sure if I am willing to give up the squadron for that. As doing the larger instances would be nice as well as getting the eq that follows I still rather like the Squadron. This is really an extended version of the PUG. A more organized way to join a pug based on the individual and not guilds.

Some more thoughts to consider in this idea.

I do like the idea. However, I see some logistical problems about it. One there are too many obtuse guilds out there. Many are a collection of the very people that provide us the reason to keep the Squirrel Squadron. Most small guilds either peter out or get absorbed into the bigger guilds, therefore facing a constant marketing issue to make sure smaller guilds are aware of this site.

Now maybe if done right and is successful, word of mouth will be its own marketing such as thottbot or the Leeroy scene. I know there are forums and stuff to post in, but that generates an immediate result, long term is concern.

Two other issues are no accountability or immediacy. Accountability, people can just start "reserving" their space on raids and never show up. Dealing with these small guilds there is no accountability. Sure we can say they have revoked priviledges on the site but they can create new guilds/names easily enough. Plus within the guild structure, there is no reprimand structure. Look at us, if someone came to me saying Orlin was a drunk dwarf causing a bar room brawl, I'd laugh and say shouldn't pick on a dwarf with beer in his hand.

Other aspect, is in general, there isn't much need of a schedule to raid Strat or Scholo or anything since its not needing 40 people. Don't need to organize as much, just grab 10 people. So most of the time, those runs are just going to be a well I'm logged on let's do it aspect, not a well let's plan this out or check a board. So the immediacy of wanting to form a party now contradicts the tardiness of a board system.

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There has been a lot of mumblings about doing these tougher instances and even thoughts of the end game instances. I have another suggestion. Black Rose Guard. I know the people in there decently, have observed and parteid with them a lot. They probably don't know me as well since I have like 2,142,315 characters. Give or take. But I know overall they are a good guild with good people. Elwine, the leader, she can sound to be a bit demandign at times, but she really isn't. But she is always getting raids going. SHe is always asking me to go with them when she is on. THey also are getting raids to MC and ZG organized on their website. THey have an alliance with the Arcane Guard or something like that and those are pretty good people too, though that guild is starting to wane.

Janelle can attest, she often and most of the time also turns down guild activities. So it wouldn't be like we are tied to do whatever the guild is doing. Be it we knowing our character, would do a lot for and with the guild, but we can still do our own thing. They do have a TS server as well, though mostly only used during actual raids, handful are on it often, but mostly just gather together when doing a 10 or 15 man. I like our ability to converse with each other.

Elwine has asked on multiple occassions for us to join her guild. If we decide on this option, and we decide it isn't worth it, we can always reform the Squirrel Squadron.

I like the idea, but think we all need to discuss via TS. A couple of questions are 1)Programming & Development - I am sure you would take care of that. 2)Funding & Viability - what's it cost to develop, what's it cost to the end user, and how do we get the word out?